April 23, 2017, 10:39:20 AM

Author Topic: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)  (Read 1939 times)

Offline Frostclaw

Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 08:58:37 AM »
@PinkheartII I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "necessary". No death is ever truly necessary (Whitestorm, Dustpelt, and Longtail come to mind). Hardship is just a part of life for them, and that means cats will die, with or without good reason.

Offline PinkheartII

Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2015, 01:24:29 AM »
The same goes for Gray Wing and Turtle Tail, in my opinion. They have the excuse of being childhood best friends, but still, their progression as a couple was too quick for my comfort. Come to think of it, is there a single well paced shipping in DOTC, or for that matter, any recent Warriors book? Anyone?
And this is what I disagree with. Very strongly, tbh. Gray Wing and Turtle Tail wasn't rushed in the least. Knowing each other since they were young isn't "too quick", and it's heavily implied that Turtle Tail had a crush on him long before The Sun Trail even started. Considering they weren't mates right off the bat, it's not like they met in one chapter and became mates in another; this isn't like Clear Sky and Star Flower, Gray Wing and Slate, or Thunder and Violet Dawn. They had the books themselves, and before the books to establish their relationship. (I mean friendship relationship, not romantic)

There are a few well-paced pairings in Warriors. Tawnypet and Rowanstar, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight, Brackenfur and Sorreltail, Firestar and Sandstorm, Cloudtail and Brightheart, Whitewing and Birchfall, ect. Hell, even if I dislike Bumblestripe and Dovewing, it wasn't just pulled out of a hat- Dovewing and Bumblestripe's relationship was already partially established. It might not go how you want it, but it doesn't make them any less established and paced.
Hmmm... I suppose Gray Wing and Turtle Tail aren't really badly paced, sometimes my reluctance of the romance genre can confuse me. Even as I type this, I quarrel with myself about how sad Turtle Tail's death was and how they both deserved more time with each other, but then calling myself out for thinking them too fast paced beforehand. But now I see what bad romantic writing really is, with Thunder and Violet.
Also, I agree with all the shippings you listed except Dovewing and Bumblestripe, they were all well paced and built up perfectly. Dovewing and Bumblestripe though... they're hinted to be romantically interested in each other, they have a tiny moment in SOTM, the former completely forgets the latter in the next chapter and never mentions him again for the rest of the book, then in TFW, they just pick up where they left off like Dovewing hadn't forgotten about his existence. That comes across as extremely sloppy to me.

Quote
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "necessary". No death is ever truly necessary (Whitestorm, Dustpelt, and Longtail come to mind). Hardship is just a part of life for them, and that means cats will die, with or without good reaso
I mean necessary, as serving a purpose to the narrative itself.
Whitestorm was killed to give Firestar someone to avenge when he went up against Scourge, as well as extra motivation. Whitestorm is very popular in the series, so with him dead, a lot more readers would be on the edge of their seats in the final confrontation, supporting Firestar in their mutual interest with the character to see their old friend and comrade avenged and put to rest. It also taught Firestar that being a leader includes making tough decisions, and losing cats in your command in the process, regardless of whenever you made the right choice. That's a good moral that both kids and adults should learn.
That same moral also applies to Dustpelt's death. If he hadn't died, Bramblestar would have came out of the badger fight thinking, "LOLZ! I KNEW HELPING ROWANSTAR WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! I SAVED SOO MANY CATS IN MY DECISION, YAY!" And like you said, that's not the reality Warriors takes place in. Dustpelt's death assured that there would always be a note of doubt in the back of Bramblestar's mind; "Should I have helped Rowanstar? If I hadn't, Dustpelt would still be alive. Then again, how many more cats would have been killed if I left ShadowClan to fend for themselves?"
That kind of insoluble, nagging uncertainty going through the main character's heads after every major event is part of what makes Warriors so great; it challenges the readers way of thinking and shows them that they're may not always be one right answer, but you just have to go with what you believe in, and hope for the best. Without Dustpelt's death, the story of Bramblestar's Storm would have been so much weaker.
And Longtail's death is probably the most simple, the one where both of our opinions are probably correct. (I am NOT saying that my opinion is more right in other situations than yours, or ANYTHING like that! It was just a way to segway into my next point! Don't be offended where no offense was intended!)
 World-building. Think about it. What was one of the major complaints fans had with TPOT? The lack of deaths. Other than a lot of fans insatiable need for violence, (LOL) it really wrecks the atmosphere when were constantly being reminded that there are threats around every corner, and almost every book there is a new natural phenomenon (floods, droughts, lack of prey, etc) that the characters have to deal with on top of the current plot, but then there are only three deaths over the course of a little over a year, one not actually being a death, and another confirmed to be accidental. (In The Ultimate Guide, it's confirmed Ashfur's death was an accident.) That kind of disrespect to realism really kind of shatters the suspension of disbelief, doesn't it?
So, OOTS comes along, and by book two, there's already more deaths than in the entirety of TPOT. Suddenly, the immersion is brought back to a healthy level, especially since a blind cat who can't see a quick and drastic change to his environment, such as, a tree being dropped on his head,  is killed in the ensuing event. We know animals who are weaker or handicapped for whatever reason don't survive as long as other animals, even with an entire clan to protect them, because sooner or later, nature pulls something unpredictable that they can't defend them from. With Longtail dying, this reinforces the tough, unforgiving environment that this story takes place in, to a greater effect than if a full sighted warrior was killed. It also gives Mousefur a little character development that side character's don't normally get, teaching her that maybe acting like a grumpy, nonsensical granny isn't such a good idea in life or death situations.
Wow, that was a lot longer than I intended it to be! But you see my point, right? Every death, scene, character action and reaction should serve to bring something back to the narrative, to give it a lesson, a purpose, attach something timeless and worthwhile to it. Even the most random deaths in Warriors serve to boost the immersion of the Warriors world, to remind the reader just how harsh their reality is, strengthening the story in the process.
And with that, I think I just got my answer.
Gray Wing's death was just that, to remind us that a cat that can't run across the moor without having to stop and literally gasp for air after awhile just won't live as long as a healthy cat. If something doesn't eventually kill him, the weather will make sure to worsen his condition to the point of death, just like it did. But not only was it for world building, but it was also to give a strong, final note to the ending, one that actually satisfies a reader and doesn't make them wait for the upcoming super edition for a complete experience. Gray Wing's life is literally wrapped up, as he reflects on everything he did and says goodbye to his family and friends, intentionally bringing us along his trail of memories as we were there beside him the entire way. For every step of his journey, we were not far behind, and now, we have to say goodbye to our dear friend as he joins his lost family in the sky, while we must stay with the loved ones he left behind for the sequel.
If you excuse me, I am going to go cry into a corner for three hours.
But now, I finally feel at peace. I know why this happened, and it wasn't for some cheap tearjerker to make the audience think this story was deeper and more thought provoking than it was. Because it wasn't. This was easily one of the best Warrior novels of the entire franchise, it didn't need to use some awful, under handed trick to increase it's score.
Save that kind of behavior for the people behind The Walking Dead, Season 2 video game. Burn!

Offline bramblebelly

Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2015, 11:14:58 PM »
I loved this book! I truly couldn't set it down .... and I cried as I read the last few pages.

The book really brought out the role Grey Wing has had in creating the clans. Without him, they would have become nothing but a gaggle of rival gangs.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2015, 12:09:56 PM »
The same goes for Gray Wing and Turtle Tail, in my opinion. They have the excuse of being childhood best friends, but still, their progression as a couple was too quick for my comfort. Come to think of it, is there a single well paced shipping in DOTC, or for that matter, any recent Warriors book? Anyone?
And this is what I disagree with. Very strongly, tbh. Gray Wing and Turtle Tail wasn't rushed in the least. Knowing each other since they were young isn't "too quick", and it's heavily implied that Turtle Tail had a crush on him long before The Sun Trail even started. Considering they weren't mates right off the bat, it's not like they met in one chapter and became mates in another; this isn't like Clear Sky and Star Flower, Gray Wing and Slate, or Thunder and Violet Dawn. They had the books themselves, and before the books to establish their relationship. (I mean friendship relationship, not romantic)

There are a few well-paced pairings in Warriors. Tawnypet and Rowanstar, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight, Brackenfur and Sorreltail, Firestar and Sandstorm, Cloudtail and Brightheart, Whitewing and Birchfall, ect. Hell, even if I dislike Bumblestripe and Dovewing, it wasn't just pulled out of a hat- Dovewing and Bumblestripe's relationship was already partially established. It might not go how you want it, but it doesn't make them any less established and paced.
Hmmm... I suppose Gray Wing and Turtle Tail aren't really badly paced, sometimes my reluctance of the romance genre can confuse me. Even as I type this, I quarrel with myself about how sad Turtle Tail's death was and how they both deserved more time with each other, but then calling myself out for thinking them too fast paced beforehand. But now I see what bad romantic writing really is, with Thunder and Violet.
Also, I agree with all the shippings you listed except Dovewing and Bumblestripe, they were all well paced and built up perfectly. Dovewing and Bumblestripe though... they're hinted to be romantically interested in each other, they have a tiny moment in SOTM, the former completely forgets the latter in the next chapter and never mentions him again for the rest of the book, then in TFW, they just pick up where they left off like Dovewing hadn't forgotten about his existence. That comes across as extremely sloppy to me.
Gray Wing and Turtle Tail really did deserve more time with each other, and I am still extremely distressed over Turtle Tail's death, especially since it was technically an off-screen death. Considering she's my favorite Dawn of the Clans character (and second favorite character; right below Cloudtail), I will probably forever be bitter about this. Due to her lack of time with Gray Wing after becoming official mates... it just really annoys me that they only had maybe one book, total, to really delve deeper into their romantic relationship. Given that Turtle Tail really liked him before the arc even started, it could have really worked out in Turtle Tail's favor and she could have probably lived happily forever with Gray Wing...

I mean yeah, she got what she wanted in the end, but it was so short-lived that many people think it was just a fling or a poorly-established relationship. Their platonic relationship was already planned out before the books even started, and it's like this with Clear Sky and Bright Stream as well- which tbh, I am quite bitter about Bright Stream's death as well, and I was hoping to at least see her make it to the new land...not still in the mountains. >.> I think the arc could have gone in such a different path had Bright Stream lived until she got to the forest, instead of dying in the mountains..

Also, I agree with all the shippings you listed except Dovewing and Bumblestripe, they were all well paced and built up perfectly. Dovewing and Bumblestripe though... they're hinted to be romantically interested in each other, they have a tiny moment in SOTM, the former completely forgets the latter in the next chapter and never mentions him again for the rest of the book, then in TFW, they just pick up where they left off like Dovewing hadn't forgotten about his existence. That comes across as extremely sloppy to me.

Well, I meant a relationship as in some form of bond for Dovewing and Bumblestripe. It's not like they had zero interactions- they had more than a few, and it's not like every other one of Dovewing's thoughts should be about her love interest.. I saw that with Tigerheart and I didn't like it at all. While it doesn't seem like they have much interaction, they still have a lot more interaction than most of the characters and their partners combined. Hell, Dovewing and Bumblestripe still had more interaction in one book than Gray Wing and Slate did in almost two. (only slightly joking here tbh)

Sorry, I'm just bitter about Slate and I don't like her, as I feel she was really just a replacement for Turtle Tail so Gray Wing could actually father kits....considering he basically doesn't even get to see them grow up, so it's not like he's really gonna leave much of an impression on them. >.>

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Offline Ariel

Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2015, 06:40:21 PM »
I'm late to the party as usual, but w/e.

My thoughts/opinions:
*I actually liked Clear Sky in this. He finally has recognized what a horrid cat he had been and is trying to make up for his past mistakes. I was worried this would be a repeat of the last book where he claimed he was sorry, but still acted like a conceited know-it-all. This one feels like he's finally matured and grown.

*I wish we could have spent some more time getting to know the rogues. I'm sure in future stories we'll get see/learn more about them though. I also wish that we could have spent a little time with River Ripple and Tall Shadow's camp, but I suppose that would have been too many POVs.

*I like Violet Dawn, but I agree with everyone that her relationship with Thunder happened way too fast.

*I kind of wish there was a better resolution with Slash than him just heading off with his followers. I don't mind that he lived, but I wish there had still been something.. more.

*Gray Wing's death was pretty sad. I think it did wrap up the series nicely though. There's still a lot of missing elements about Clan life and whatnot, but I that will addressed in Moth Flight's SE and other future books.

Offline PinkheartII

Re: Thoughts on Path of Stars (Unmarked Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2015, 12:19:48 AM »
Quote
Well, I meant a relationship as in some form of bond for Dovewing and Bumblestripe. It's not like they had zero interactions- they had more than a few, and it's not like every other one of Dovewing's thoughts should be about her love interest.. I saw that with Tigerheart and I didn't like it at all. While it doesn't seem like they have much interaction, they still have a lot more interaction than most of the characters and their partners combined. Hell, Dovewing and Bumblestripe still had more interaction in one book than Gray Wing and Slate did in almost two. (only slightly joking here tbh)

Sorry, I'm just bitter about Slate and I don't like her, as I feel she was really just a replacement for Turtle Tail so Gray Wing could actually father kits....considering he basically doesn't even get to see them grow up, so it's not like he's really gonna leave much of an impression on them. >.>
I suppose you have a point, but I still think they were a bad couple. True, they did have more interactions, but the pacing absolutely ruined it. Dovewing and Tigerheart though... oh, they were so much worse! That's all I am gonna say, because this is a Path of Stars thread, and I don't want to end up going on a rant with them.
I actually like Slate a lot, I think she's really cool. Yeah, she did seem to be a replacement to me too at first, but I feel like they characterized her enough in the beginning to set her apart as her own cat, not some cheap rip off of Turtle Tail. And although it was obvious that Slate and Gray Wing were going to end up together with kits, they at least didn't make them romantic partners right off the bat, like they did with Thunder and Violet. They started off as friends, bonded over their experiences of losing loved ones, and built their way up from there. Even though it took off at a rocket's pace in Path of Stars.
My thoughts/opinions:
*I actually liked Clear Sky in this. He finally has recognized what a horrid cat he had been and is trying to make up for his past mistakes. I was worried this would be a repeat of the last book where he claimed he was sorry, but still acted like a conceited know-it-all. This one feels like he's finally matured and grown.

*I wish we could have spent some more time getting to know the rogues. I'm sure in future stories we'll get see/learn more about them though. I also wish that we could have spent a little time with River Ripple and Tall Shadow's camp, but I suppose that would have been too many POVs.

*I like Violet Dawn, but I agree with everyone that her relationship with Thunder happened way too fast.

*I kind of wish there was a better resolution with Slash than him just heading off with his followers. I don't mind that he lived, but I wish there had still been something.. more.

*Gray Wing's death was pretty sad. I think it did wrap up the series nicely though. There's still a lot of missing elements about Clan life and whatnot, but I that will addressed in Moth Flight's SE and other future books.
Everything here, I agree with. To me, the rouges were all introduced very suddenly and there was just too many of them for anyone to make a big impact. In The Sun Trail, they had a lot more time to introduce the cast and familiarize them with the readers, but here, it's like, "Bam! Here's a brave character! Bam! There's another one! Bam! That's the loving mother! Bam! That's the spy's sister!"
At least they managed to pull off Frog's death. The way Willow tries to snap him out of it, the way the snow and the cold wind is described... it just makes the scene perfect. Just like Gray Wing's death, it was written perfectly. All of the dramatic and suspenseful scenes are written out flawlessly, and it's beautiful.