Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
August 15, 2018, 06:42:20 AM

Author Topic: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders  (Read 2556 times)

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« on: July 28, 2015, 12:20:59 PM »
So now that we have quite a few series out, we have had a chance to see all manners of clan leaders. Some were obviously very good and some were not quite so good, but I was wondering what everyone thinks makes a leader good or bad?

Is a leader only good when they are unwaveringly loyal to their clan? Or should good leaders perhaps be more diplomatic? Should they push hard to get more territory? Should they be more peaceful? Perhaps they are a mix of lots of such things?

With all of this in mind, which cats then does everyone think have displayed characteristics of excellent leaders? Have any cats shown themselves to be somewhat poor leaders? And on top of this, are there any cats who you think would make a good leader, if given the chance?

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Offline Scar

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Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 12:33:24 PM »
This may sound kind of simple or obvious, but I think that a good leader is one who makes their decisions based on what they feel is best for their Clan. For example, Firestar, Bluestar, and Tallstar (in my opinion) were good leaders because everything they did was to help their Clan. Tigerstar, on the other hand, was a bad leader, because all his decisions were made (both in ShadowClan and ThunderClan as deputy) to feed his own ambition. I'm on the fence about Leopardstar, though; she joined Tigerstar for the good of her Clan and to help them succeed, but I feel like she also took some personal gain into consideration.

I feel like Yellowfang would have made a good leader if given the chance. She was firm and bitter, but she loved and protected her Clan(s) with everything she had.

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 12:51:40 PM »
This may sound kind of simple or obvious, but I think that a good leader is one who makes their decisions based on what they feel is best for their Clan. For example, Firestar, Bluestar, and Tallstar (in my opinion) were good leaders because everything they did was to help their Clan. Tigerstar, on the other hand, was a bad leader, because all his decisions were made (both in ShadowClan and ThunderClan as deputy) to feed his own ambition. I'm on the fence about Leopardstar, though; she joined Tigerstar for the good of her Clan and to help them succeed, but I feel like she also took some personal gain into consideration.

I feel like Yellowfang would have made a good leader if given the chance. She was firm and bitter, but she loved and protected her Clan(s) with everything she had.

I definitely feel this is a fair mark of a good leader. For Leopardstar, I'm not sure we can really know if she was in it for personal gain. If she was being a bit selfish, she certainly had a long leadership to make up for it, and even good leaders can do things they later regret. Personally I feel that over all she was a decent leader.

In a similar manner I feel that Blackstar was also a pretty decent leader. He definitely started from not so great origins (he was a rogue with Tigerclaw for a while if I remember correctly) but once he actually became leader, he tended to actually do what was best for his clan. He certainly also stands out considering Shadowclan's line of bad leaders right before him (Tigerstar, Nightstar who died immediately, and Brokenstar).

Yellowfang is definitely an intriguing candidate for leadership, I had never even considered her because she was a medicine cat. I think it's very plausible she would have what it takes to be a good leader!

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Offline Scar

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Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 12:56:57 PM »
This may sound kind of simple or obvious, but I think that a good leader is one who makes their decisions based on what they feel is best for their Clan. For example, Firestar, Bluestar, and Tallstar (in my opinion) were good leaders because everything they did was to help their Clan. Tigerstar, on the other hand, was a bad leader, because all his decisions were made (both in ShadowClan and ThunderClan as deputy) to feed his own ambition. I'm on the fence about Leopardstar, though; she joined Tigerstar for the good of her Clan and to help them succeed, but I feel like she also took some personal gain into consideration.

I feel like Yellowfang would have made a good leader if given the chance. She was firm and bitter, but she loved and protected her Clan(s) with everything she had.

I definitely feel this is a fair mark of a good leader. For Leopardstar, I'm not sure we can really know if she was in it for personal gain. If she was being a bit selfish, she certainly had a long leadership to make up for it, and even good leaders can do things they later regret. Personally I feel that over all she was a decent leader.

In a similar manner I feel that Blackstar was also a pretty decent leader. He definitely started from not so great origins (he was a rogue with Tigerclaw for a while if I remember correctly) but once he actually became leader, he tended to actually do what was best for his clan. He certainly also stands out considering Shadowclan's line of bad leaders right before him (Tigerstar, Nightstar who died immediately, and Brokenstar).
That's a good point; and RiverClan must have considered her a good leader too if they continued to follow her...

Blackstar is one of my favorite leaders in general, so I agree. Based on the things he had to go through and the leaders he had to follow after, I feel like he could have been much, MUCH worse.
Plus I headcanon him as a macho-tom with a secret heart of gold so

Offline Frostclaw

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2015, 01:58:39 PM »
For as little as we've seen of him actually being a leader, I feel like Bramblestar did a good job in his super edition, keeping ThunderClan safe during the flooding. And I think he'll only get better now that he's realized he has to be himself as a leader, and can't just copy Firestar.

That said, I was always disappointed that Brackenfur never even got named Deputy; he would have made a good leader.

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 04:46:42 PM »
@Scartail I love that Blackstar headcanon tbh, it feels so right for him xD

@Frostclaw I agree, Brackenfur would have been a really cool Deputy and/or Leader. I maybe have a bit of a soft spot and possibly a bit of a bias, but he is just so level-headed I can't see him doing much wrong!

I have yet to read Bramblestar's storm, but your judgement of him seems fair. Speaking of, I've always thought his sister Tawnypelt would be an interesting choice for leadership. She's smart and doesn't put up with any nonsense, both of which strike me as good leadership qualities.

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Offline Sunneth

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Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2015, 05:23:30 PM »
I'm reading Yellowfang's Secret and it just seems so weird to me, because Raggedstar is leader now, and I remember in the first series that Yellowfang was like "ahhhhh raggedstar, what a Good and Noble Leader, aaaaaahhh"
but like... one of the very first things he did after becoming leader was
(click to show/hide)

Agreed on the Brackenfur and Tawnypelt trains, they seem like they would be the best <3
As for Leopardstar, I remember it saying that she really regretted the whole TigerClan thing, and I think that's important, because she learned from her mistakes.

Offline Lightning

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Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 03:05:36 AM »
I'm rereading the original arc, and I'm still not finding myself liking Bluestar any more than I did before?? Everyone calls her a good leader, but I just don't see it. I understand that everyone has their own opinions, but mine is of the lesser accepted variety where I just don't like Bluestar at all...and I just don't see the amazing ThunderClan leader from the original arc that everyone else sees?

I also don't care for the fact that she promoted Fireheart so early...when there were other cats that deserved it just as much, if not more, than Fireheart did...Whitestorm would have been just as good, if not better, than Fireheart and the more I read this arc, the less I'm enjoying it.

And she also snaps at her cats way too frequently, but that could just be the tension or something like that.

Please don't judge me for it... I get enough hate for disliking Bluestar and Firestar as it is. >.>




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Offline Ariel

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 06:43:50 AM »
I'm rereading the original arc, and I'm still not finding myself liking Bluestar any more than I did before?? Everyone calls her a good leader, but I just don't see it. I understand that everyone has their own opinions, but mine is of the lesser accepted variety where I just don't like Bluestar at all...and I just don't see the amazing ThunderClan leader from the original arc that everyone else sees?

I also don't care for the fact that she promoted Fireheart so early...when there were other cats that deserved it just as much, if not more, than Fireheart did...Whitestorm would have been just as good, if not better, than Fireheart and the more I read this arc, the less I'm enjoying it.

And she also snaps at her cats way too frequently, but that could just be the tension or something like that.

Please don't judge me for it... I get enough hate for disliking Bluestar and Firestar as it is. >.>
This. I'm... not a Bluestar fan for pretty much the reasons you listed. I honestly don't think she's that great of a leader.

Man, I guess I need to reread the original arc because I can't really remember much of anything special about the other leaders.

Blackstar is pretty good until Sol showed up, but I also understand Blackstar questioning StarClan - ShadowClan did seem to be having a lot of bad luck and bad things happening to them. Too early to see how
(click to show/hide)
is as leader - I feel bad for him as he already had to be saved by ThunderClan twice just after he started. I'm sure he and his clan is wondering about his skills - granted it was a tough time for them.

Can't remember Crookedstar too much. Remember really liking the SE though - just can't remember his leadership skills. Leopardstar was alright, but I don't remember her doing anything special. Yes, she made a huge mistake in joining with Tigerstar and I know she tries to justify it by saying she was thinking it would make her clan stronger, but I think it was for more selfish reasons. However, she did admit to her mistake and was trying to make up for it. For some reason, also not a fan of Mistystar. I always wished she had just retired as deputy.

I'm not a fan of Tallstar. I understand that he wanted peace and didn't want to fight, but his decisions seemed to not be the best ones (especially the Onewhisker thing - though he had no way of knowing how he would turn out). Onestar just needs to stop.

Firestar is alright. And it's a little too early to see how Bramblestar is as leader as his SE was mostly him trying to figure out how to lead in place of Firestar.

And I don't care for Leafstar either. Which is funny because I'm sure if I were leader I would be similar to her. "Oh, I should say something about this to them" *doesn't say anything/keeps putting it off* "he really shouldn't be making these decisions - I'm leader" *lets him do it anyway*

Offline Lightning

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Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 06:47:09 AM »
Onestar is horrible. He's hardly the same character he was before... and I really can't wait until he kicks the bucket. Tallstar made one terrible mistake when he replaced Mudclaw with Onewhisker... I can almost bet that Tallstar's up in StarClan shaking his head wondering where he went wrong. Onewhisker was amazing before he became leader, and then his personality changed so drastically it's a wonder they're even the same character.

I also have high hopes for
(click to show/hide)
and I'm really anxious to see what his leadership will be like.

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Offline Frostclaw

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2015, 09:41:20 AM »
Thunder never really stood out as a leader for me. Maybe it'll be different when I re-read DotC, but it seems like the only reason he becomes a leader is because he has to form ThunderClan.

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 01:46:26 PM »
I personally like Bluestar as a character, but I think that she was a mediocre leader at best. I don't think she was terrible, but she did quite a number of things that were selfishly motivated, and on top of that, she was mostly leader because she essentially forced her way into the deputy position. She's such a flawed character and I find her interesting but yeah possibly not the best leader.

I like Firestar personally, and I also really like Mistystar actually (though I'm not sure how she's done as a leader so far?)

Raggedstar and Onestar are not very good leaders I definitely agree on those.........

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Offline bramblebelly

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2015, 11:11:00 PM »
It took the whole series for me to realize it, but Grey Wing was really an excellent leader.

Loved and respected by all, completely without any 'official' authority to endorse him or warrior code to reference, he was able to nudge all the cats onto the right path. He died beloved by all - and with EVERY clan in his debt.

Firestar was the epitome of the perfect leader ... but he had some great mentors. He also moved into an existing clan structure; he didn't have to create one from scratch.


Offline Spellmaster

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2015, 05:44:38 PM »
to me, good leaders are the ones who are the most... balanced, I think? most of the contention seems to be over whether leaders should look after all the clans or just their own, and honestly I think they need both. obviously spending too much time worrying about outsiders may put their own clan at risk, but I can't agree with screwing everyone else over for personal gain, either. so I think the best leaders would take a middle-of-the-road approach, doing what they need to do to strengthen and protect their own clans, but without being afraid to work together, accept help they need, or offer help someone else needs.

I agree that onestar needs to Stop, he's made windclan way too antagonistic :/ I seem to remember tallstar and crookedstar being pretty reasonable, but it's been so long since I read the first/second series that I'm not sure how accurate my impressions of the early leaders are... and I don't dislike firestar, but I want to say he's a little quick to use his own clan's resources to help everyone else? can't remember any specific instances of that, though... I think leafstar is doing okay, but I wish she had stood up for herself more. besides that it's kind of hard to judge her against the others when skyclan has such different circumstances to consider.

also I feel like Bramblestar's Storm dealt with this question a lot, so in that particular context:
(click to show/hide)

last opinion I promise: brackenfur has always been a popular fandom choice for deputy, but I'm kind of... neutral on him? I don't doubt that he'd be a level-headed and caring leader, but it never seemed to me like he cared much for power, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing (could be a good thing in some situations), I've just never seen him as someone who'd enjoy all that responsibility. /shrug
although, that said, I do feel like brackenfur would have been a better choice than graystripe, if only because graystripe has not proven himself the best at making good decisions (and firestar promoting him feels a lot more like favoritism than anything else)......

Offline Barkfoot

Re: Good Leaders, Bad Leaders
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 07:04:02 PM »
I think there are a lot of qualities that make good leaders, but that there isn't one ideal. I mean that in two ways: for one, I think we have never seen a 'perfect' leader, and for two, I don't think that one cat with all the best leaderly traits would be appropriate for all Clans in all situations. Sometimes you need a Onestar, who will make choices that aren't necessarily good for diplomacy, but who will make his Clan feel strong again. Sometimes you need a Firestar, who might sometimes seem like he's butting in too much, but who genuinely cares about all the Clans and respects them. Sometimes you need a Leopardstar who will never stop fighting for her Clan, even when it's a battle that doesn't need to be fought.

That said, my favorite leader is hard to pin down. Leafstar is one of my favorite characters, but do I think she's the best ever leader? Maybe. She certainly has to make a lot of tough decisions, and has her work cut out for her, teaching a bunch of kittypets and rogues the warrior code. I also love Tallstar, because he's so compassionate. I love Blackstar for working so hard to make ShadowClan respected again without begging for the other clans to accept them. It's hard to decide...

I'm rereading the original arc, and I'm still not finding myself liking Bluestar any more than I did before?? Everyone calls her a good leader, but I just don't see it. I understand that everyone has their own opinions, but mine is of the lesser accepted variety where I just don't like Bluestar at all...and I just don't see the amazing ThunderClan leader from the original arc that everyone else sees?

I also don't care for the fact that she promoted Fireheart so early...when there were other cats that deserved it just as much, if not more, than Fireheart did...Whitestorm would have been just as good, if not better, than Fireheart and the more I read this arc, the less I'm enjoying it.

And she also snaps at her cats way too frequently, but that could just be the tension or something like that.

Please don't judge me for it... I get enough hate for disliking Bluestar and Firestar as it is. >.>

I agree that Bluestar was kind of a wreck in The Prophecies Begin. I think Bluestar's thing is that she was formerly a great leader and most of what we saw was her decline. We never even get to see her being a good leader in her super edition, because they put the time skip right over basically her entire leadership.

I think she was the kind of cat who would be good behind a desk. She made good decisions sometimes, but her people skills were lacking. Problem is, when you lead twenty or thirty cats whom you've known your whole life, or who have known you for their whole lives,you really need those people skills...

Also, she worked really hard to overcome her trauma, as every good protagonist does, but she doesn't do it as well as many. She really started to let her empathy go down the drain, and after Tigerstar betrayed her, she just kind of fell apart, regretting the past more than focusing on the present.