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Author Topic: Territory Layouts  (Read 1253 times)

Offline Spellmaster

Territory Layouts
« on: August 15, 2015, 06:56:34 PM »
I think we had a thread like this on v4, but I'm probably even more confused about this now than I was then...

basically, how do you see the camps and territories? do you stick to the maps or just kind of imagine the cats' surroundings as you go? have you ever thought that something looked one way, and then found out it's really not like that at all?

as for the camps, I'm certain I'm totally wrong about them :P somehow I never got a clear sense of where all the dens were in either the original forest or the lakeside territories, so when they mention them in relation to each other in the books, I kind of just... skip over that...

but then I got to the short graphic novel part at the end of bramblestar's storm and the camp looks nothing like I imagined?? I was thinking of the hollow as, like... a big, near-circular hole set into a hill, so the cats aren't going down a steep slope at the entrance but there's still cliffs in the back. but here it looks really deep (the entrance is diagonal) and really spacious, with hardly any brush inside, and hardly any trees above either... I don't know if that's just because there's fewer trees around the edge of the hollow but I definitely didn't imagine thunderclan's forest as that sparse

for the territories in general, I guess I never referenced the maps enough because I've always had a pretty skewed idea of where everything is, but a few things in particular threw me off in bramblestar's storm:
(click to show/hide)

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2015, 05:51:30 AM »
I've not read Bramblestar's Storm yet, but I definitely have images in my mind of how I think all the clan camps would look. It might be a little hard for me to describe honestly, but I can try my best.

(POTENTIAL BRAMBLESTAR'S STORM SPOILERS WITHIN THE POST)

-Thunderclan: A lot of how I imagine Thunderclan comes from what the cover of Twilight looks like. It has a really tall and very steep cliff face on the back side. The other sides I imagine to be very overgrown with trees and general underbrush (like you I have a hard time picturing Thunderclan to be sparse, in terms of trees) I picture the leader's den to be somewhat midway up in the cliff, with warrior's dens somewhat at the bottom of the cliff, the nursery is next to the cliff but technically separate and built into grass and brambles instead of cliff face, and the elder's den is even farther off from the cliffs, built into a mossy little hollow between some more trees. The medicine cat's den is almost more towards the front of camp, built into a little rocky outcrop that possibly has a tree stump on it (?)

-Shadowclan: I've always imagined Shadowclan to be in borderline swampy territory. So they're on somewhat lower ground than Thunderclan for instance but their camp doesn't really get wet or anything. I picture there are a lot of pines around, so their camp stays dark under the shade of the forest (appropriate for the name of their clan). The walls of their clan are mostly made of bramble, grass, and other little shrubs, and these things also divide the portions of their camp up. I imagine the medicine cat den to be in a huge fallen log that is somewhat hollowed out, and the leader's den is in a little overhang that has dirt and moss and roots dangling from it. The other nests are just kinda...plain and there lol.

-Windclan: I obviously picture Windclan to have the highest territory, they basically live on the top of a hill, and their walls are all made of thick, tall grass that the cats have worked into the shape of a camp. The entire ground on the inside, I picture to be cleared of grass, so it's basically just this nice soft dirt. I don't really have any significant headcanons for the Windclan camp otherwise (Leave it to me to have the most boring headcanons for my favorite clan haha)

-Riverclan: I picture Riverclan to live the closest to the lake, and their camp is mostly based on a huge oak tree. The roots provide little nooks for things to be built in, and lots of grass tufts and shrubs are all around the camp making up the walls. I picture Riverclan to have a very spacey camp for some reason? Everything is nice and spread out.

On the lake territory in general...I've always kind of pictured it as fairly mountainous on one side, and flattening dramatically on the other side, so it's kind of like a big half bowl thing. I could easily see three of the camps getting flooded (minus Windclan who is up on the hilltops) though I can't imagine there being enough flooding to cover tree tops (that honestly sounds like a mistake or just bad writing, unsure of which).

Also, the caves I imagine to run all through the hills, so while some of them are probably very low and flood in most storms, I also imagine some of them are set in much higher up parts of the hills and such.

So, yeah! I'm honestly not sure if canon contradicts any of this but that's how I picture stuff! :D

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Offline Spellmaster

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 11:57:14 PM »
I finally started reading DotC and I'm not quite done with the first book, but I have no idea what's going on when they describe the mountains D: it doesn't help that I barely remember anything about the tribe and their territory from the other books, but the narration goes on about hills and cliffs and valleys and ledges and my mental image is constantly changing trying to figure out what it's supposed to look like...

also when I was reading yellowfang's SE, I got really confused when someone insisted on going to the moonstone (from shadowclan's camp) without touching windclan territory, and yellowfang was like "well that'll make it harder but okay"... I didn't know why they'd be on windclan territory at all, I guess I've been imagining the area around highstones really wrong oops

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 10:10:50 AM »
They definitely shouldn't....have to touch Windclan territory? Going to Windclan would actually mean they have to cross the Thunderpath TWICE per trip uh. Maybe it's too rocky to approach the Highstones from that angle or something? Strange.

Reading Tallstar's Revenge, I had similar confusions, because Talltail leaves Windclan, crosses with houses/twoleg things, then he's in Shadowclan somehow, then he's in a twoleg place again, and I'm like....
-looks at map squinting trying to figure out how he managed that-

TR also changed my view on how I imagine the Windclan camp and territory in general, what with
(click to show/hide)

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Offline Spellmaster

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 12:57:08 AM »
Maybe it's too rocky to approach the Highstones from that angle or something? Strange.
yeah this was the only way I could make sense of it... when I finally looked at the map (they didn't even put one in yellowfang's secret?? why) I noticed there seems to be a ring of cliffs around the entrance, so I guess it's easier to go around? but it surprised me, I never realized it was so steep

especially because in DotC, when the cats get there,
(click to show/hide)

I guess that also explains why they said the medicine cats were passing by some twoleg nests on the way to the moonstone, and getting to know the farm cat living there. I didn't think there was any reason for them to be all the way out there but I guess there is :P

now that you mention it I do vaguely recall being confused about where tallstar went too... if he left through the twolegplace he shouldn't have needed to touch shadowclan's territory at all so ???

Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 04:56:53 AM »
I feel that way whenever any cats travel any long distance. I also think the book maps are super unreliable and also not at all to scale (like they always talk about highrocks being super far away but the map does not make it seem like much more than a field's width away?). I'm considering trying to draw a more reasonable map that's like....to scale and can make more sense for some of the journey descriptions xD

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Offline Lightning

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Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 09:50:52 AM »
I feel that way whenever any cats travel any long distance. I also think the book maps are super unreliable and also not at all to scale (like they always talk about highrocks being super far away but the map does not make it seem like much more than a field's width away?). I'm considering trying to draw a more reasonable map that's like....to scale and can make more sense for some of the journey descriptions xD
Those maps are never drawn to scale. There's no way in hell it's even possible. Given the amount of distance that we see the cats travel on a daily basis, those territories would need to be a lot bigger in person... I mean, sure, cats are small, but there's no way only a small field or moortop would be considered an exhausting journey. I could understand maybe a couple of fields, or maybe the span of an average-sized town... but... I dunno. I think Vicky once said that ThunderClan's camp was like... three football fields or something like that. Which I could see that making sense if they were larger cats or lions or something like that... but tiny cats? Three football fields? Okay Vicky.

That's not even counting the territory. The camp itself would be a pebble compared to the territory, tbh.

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Offline Darkforestwarrior

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 10:44:16 AM »
three football fields??? For just the CAMP?

What on earth....

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Offline Lightning

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Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 01:32:01 AM »
three football fields??? For just the CAMP?

What on earth....
Who even knows? I was browsing Vicky's facebook page one day and came across it... I'd need to go and look again, because I can't find it off the top of my head... but I seriously don't think that was legitimate. Three football fields? I could understand one, but three?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Erins never actually thought this far in advance when they got the idea for Warriors. There's no way they expected this many people to be analyzing everything and anything they say within the series.

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Offline Wolfie

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 08:12:01 PM »
Three football fields? For what, toddlers?  I think Vicky certainly chose the wrong term of measurement. It would take up to twenty minutes to walk from the warriors den, for example, to the medicine cats den. Trying to guard and reinforce the walls for the thing would be ridiculous.

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Offline Spellmaster

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2015, 09:52:00 PM »
oh wow yeah I definitely imagine the camps as being way smaller than that... like, just enough room for the cats to sleep and gather in and not much more. though like I said in the first post, based on the camp scenes in the bonus manga, I've probably been imagining the camps as too small. I never really take the time to think about how much space 20 cats would take up when they lie down

but I'm a little baffled by the territory sizes in general, because the more I read the more I start to question how much land you'd need to support a group of cats this big...? maybe I'm underestimating how much wildlife can exist in one space, but when the clans talk about bringing in rabbits and squirrels practically every day (same with eagles for the tribe), I find it hard to believe there's going to be any animals left. one forest, a hundred squirrels a year, that doesn't sound sustainable to me

I can't guess at the distances either, I'm not sure they're consistent... like, usually medicine cats (at least from thunderclan or shadowclan) going to highstones at the half moon would leave in the early evening, right? but I think there have also been times they left in the middle of the night and still got there on time, or left in the morning and made it an all-day trip? and then in The Sun Trail it seems like they keep going between the moor and the twolegplace pretty effortlessly even though that is a long way, so I'm like... ?_? too hard to assess how far anything actually is

Offline Lightning

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Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2015, 01:17:11 AM »
oh wow yeah I definitely imagine the camps as being way smaller than that... like, just enough room for the cats to sleep and gather in and not much more. though like I said in the first post, based on the camp scenes in the bonus manga, I've probably been imagining the camps as too small. I never really take the time to think about how much space 20 cats would take up when they lie down

but I'm a little baffled by the territory sizes in general, because the more I read the more I start to question how much land you'd need to support a group of cats this big...? maybe I'm underestimating how much wildlife can exist in one space, but when the clans talk about bringing in rabbits and squirrels practically every day (same with eagles for the tribe), I find it hard to believe there's going to be any animals left. one forest, a hundred squirrels a year, that doesn't sound sustainable to me

I can't guess at the distances either, I'm not sure they're consistent... like, usually medicine cats (at least from thunderclan or shadowclan) going to highstones at the full moon would leave in the early evening, right? but I think there have also been times they left in the middle of the night and still got there on time, or left in the morning and made it an all-day trip? and then in The Sun Trail it seems like they keep going between the moor and the twolegplace pretty effortlessly even though that is a long way, so I'm like... ?_? too hard to assess how far anything actually is
I would say maybe half a football field, maybe.... If that. Probably even less, honestly. Given that a lot of the dens and stuff are build out of what's already there... and how they're always needing to extend the dens, I'd say it would need to be a fairly decent size... I could legitimately see the warriors den being about the size of my bedroom (which isn't all that big; I can't fit more than a twin-sized bed in here), and maybe the medicine den being half of that, but with little nooks and holes to stick all of the herbs in. They'd also need a space for their fresh-kill pile, the leader's den, the elders' den, the apprentices' den, ect. I mean, I suppose it could be small, but it could also be a decent size depending on how you look at it.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that these territories are actually fairly huge- a normal forestland would probably have a lot of squirrels, rabbits, and mice... but these areas are also littered with at least one Twoleg place and two barns (or at least in the old territory; the newer one makes a bit more sense with the amount of prey)... so how exactly do they see that much prey? Eh, maybe it's magic. When a piece of prey gets eaten, a new one spawns up later... who even knows?

I know from personal experience (there's mountains and woodland across the river from my house) that while we do see a fair bit of squirrels, there are nowhere near as much as these books are describing. If anything, they should be bringing in more birds... it's the same with rabbits too. Now, I suppose different areas have different wildlife, but given how the original territories aren't really very foresty in the first place, there isn't any legitimate way they could come across that much prey.

Don't even get me started on the territories. I get that they're cats, and smaller, but given how fast those little creatures can move sometimes, taking an entire day (or even moreso) just for a journey to Highstones doesn't make sense, unless it's legitimately that long of a way away. I want an actual scaled map, but there's no way it would make sense given the dialogue in the books. I agree with the Twolegplace thing as well? It seemed like it was far too frequent for it to be that much of a distance??

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Offline Barkfoot

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 05:55:39 PM »
I think the old forest is the most messed up, scale wise. Also the general layout, but damn dat scale is waaaaaay jacked.

ThunderClan and ShadowClan have basically decent-sized chunks of territory (if you assume it's wildly not to scale), but RiverClan's land seems to basically be just a camp squished between the river and a farm. WindClan is pretty much the same, a teeny amount of moor and then BAM! Fourtrees. Going back further in time, the ThunderClan and SkyClan camps seem really close together. And what's that dotted line in the Twoleg View map in the DotC books and Moth Flight's Vision?

For the most part, I think the lake territories are way more believable in general, and they also seem bigger, but that's probably not supposed to be the case.

Offline Spellmaster

Re: Territory Layouts
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 05:07:39 PM »
so I'm finally reading AVoS and how about this scene in the second book guys

> shadowclan patrol leaves camp to go look for an herb on the moor
> they reach the edge of the pine forest and head toward the lake
> beyond the halfbridge, "a stretch of meadow led to the lower slopes of the moor" ???
> a thunderclan patrol approaches from behind them, calling "from the border"/"on the shore"
> after speaking to them, the shadowclan cats continue to the windclan border and cross "the stream that cut between ShadowClan land and the moor"

can anyone make sense of this or is it just straight-up wrong